Question

Topic: Customer Behavior

Where Do We Draw The Line With International Etiquette?

Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/2/2004 at 4:45 PM ET 250 Points
Where do we draw the line with International Etiquette?

I communicate with business people on a daily basis from Europe, Canada, Australia, China, Vietnam, Taiwan, Isreal, India, South Africa, and occasionally..The Middle East.

Concerning the Asian and Middle Eastern countries, there are a multitude of offensive tones, salutations, apologies (or lack there of), etc. that seem to really upset them.

These are a combination of simple and complex things. For example:

Simple: If you accidentally address someone from Vietnam or Korea by their first name BEFORE they address you as such, many will take great offense and consider it "dishonorable". The same goes for apologies; if your apology is too long, it is a sign of weakness, too short and again...disrespectful.

Complex: Sarcasm, humor, and idioms. If you are the least bit sarcastic or use an idiom they don't understand, here comes the offesnsive comments about being yet another "rude American".

So, the root of my question is WHY are Americans expected to jump through hoops, tolerate delays, and memorize countless customs and salutations in order to avoid offending foreign business people, when it seems the only thing they are willing to do is learn how to speak and/or type simple English?

Shouldn't other cultures be expected to understand American/English practices as well (i.e. Americans frequently address each other by first name after the first meeting without expecting to be called "Mr.", "Mrs./Ms.", "Sir", etc. ) ?

On several occasions, I've had to draft "culturally correct" emails just to ensure a simple response without dishonoring the other individual by calling them by their first name or insisting on expedient delivery of paid goods, etc.

It's tempting to say, "Well, we English speaking people need to give them a break since they don't understand all the idiosyncrasies of our language/culture", but why can't the same hold true vice versa?

Why is it like this and what can be done?

***Please Note: This question does not apply to EVERY foreign associate in which I communicate. About Half seem to get it and speak to me as I speak to them. So, this is not a "racial/cultural profiling", rather, a very common situation which needs to be addressed. I frequently receive emails from other experts and forum members telling me I may have offended "so-and-so because in THEIR country, nobody talks like that"...and so on. Granted, sometimes my statements are inflammatory, but where I come from, I can say what I want. Shouldn't other cultures who wish to interact with Americans and other English speaking countries take the initiative to understand our stance on freedom of speech and expression? ***
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RESPONSES

  • Posted by bobhogg on 8/2/2004 at 5:06 PM Accepted
    Jett...

    As a relative newcomer to KHE, I've got to admit to being more than a little surprised by your question!

    Here's the top KHE expert asking why his customers can't all be like him?

    If marketing teaches us anything, it surely teaches us to understand our customer so that we can communicate with that customer in a way that will get positive reaction from them. Understanding the customers' culture is therefore a very big part of that whether we are dealing with an individual customer, or a whole market.

    Two final thoughts:

    1. Was your question tongue-in-cheek?

    2. If not, and speaking as a UK marketer, thanks for the lesson in helping me understand the American culture a little bit better.

    Look forward to your feedback (and other contributors' comments) on this one!

    Good luck,
    Bob
  • Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/2/2004 at 5:15 PM Author
    bobhogg-

    This has nothing to do with wanting everyone to be like me, it has to do with international business people being willing to meet in the middle. From my perspective, it appears they want me to be like them...PERIOD!

    I am referring to B2B associates rather than B2C customers. This means other marketers, manufacturers, and the like.

    It seems that many want me to cater to thier customs, but they are not willing to learn mine.

    I have no objection to respecting other cultures to an extent..the extent being if they are not willing to understand and respect mine.

    I hope that helps clear things up a bit.
  • Posted by bobhogg on 8/2/2004 at 5:30 PM Member
    Jett...

    Point taken if you're referring to your dealings with other businesses to whom you are, in effect, a customer. THEY should be doing the work of understanding YOUR culture in that situation.

    So another couple of thoughts:

    1. Perhaps marketing training and education in the cultures you refer to needs improving?

    2. However, if you were totally successful in your quest, it looks as though you'd put a lot of people out of business if the Google ads for "cross-cultural training" and such like that come up on this page are anything to go by!!

    Good luck,
    Bob
  • Posted by SteveByrneMarketing on 8/2/2004 at 5:36 PM Accepted
    Blaine,

    I get your question and implied POV – maybe it’s not about being Americans rather it’s about being on top. If Great Britain was the world leader in everything would they be treated the same as Americans? (were they?) Or maybe it’s about something else.

    You ask “Why are Americans expected …” Maybe the expectations are based on the fact that Americans (me included) are willing to “jump through hoops” to do business with other countries. Perhaps other less flexible countries loose a fair share of business in international markets because they DO NOT jump through hoops. In any case it seems like since Americans choose to put up with the behaviors you describe and the reasons are motivated by our for–profit mentality. Americans could choose to act differently with outside markets. Still I have shared your annoyance from time to time.

    - Steve
  • Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/2/2004 at 5:44 PM Author
    Good point Steve. I didn't want to take the leap into saying America is a World Leader, but...we are! Only trying to avoid the conceited American stereotype. Nonehteless, I appreciate sharing your POV.

    bobhogg - As a matter of fact, most of the problems I encounter are as you described...I am the customer. You point is well taken and I agree if I am the provider for service, I should take the time to respect and learn their cultural boundaries.

    So, perhaps this question is truly focused toward enhencing customer service from other nations/cultures.

    Thanks!

    P.S. I'm not seeing the Google ads...maybe a glitch...
  • Posted by bobhogg on 8/2/2004 at 5:51 PM Member
    Jett...

    You said: "So, perhaps this question is truly focused toward enhencing customer service from other nations/cultures."

    Spot on! With you all the way on that - back to one of my earlier points: "Perhaps marketing training and education in the cultures you refer to needs improving?"

    One of my activities is as an examiner for professional qualifications from the Chartered Institute of Marketing here in the UK. These qualifications are international, and I see many exam scripts from students in some of the countries you originally mentioned. Too many of them simply do not "get" the culture of marketing, so perhaps THAT'S the culture we should be trying to promote world-wide?

    Good luck,
    Bob
  • Posted by Peter (henna gaijin) on 8/2/2004 at 6:10 PM Accepted
    Jett said:
    So, the root of my question is WHY are Americans expected to jump through hoops, tolerate delays, and memorize countless customs and salutations in order to avoid offending foreign business people, when it seems the only thing they are willing to do is learn how to speak and/or type simple English?

    Jett - this piece of what you wrote says loads. You are complaining that they only learn some basic english, and that you need to learn their customs. In effect, you are saying that you don't want to learn their customs or language, but instead expect them to? This doesn't sound like meeting in the middle to me.

    My advice, get the book "Kiss, Bow, or Shake Hands" by Morrison, Conaway, and Borden. This is the best of the books like this that I have found, and it is pretty convenient as it breaks down by country. Read the section and learn as much of the basics of their culture as you can.

    Also, you mention humor, sarcasm, using idioms, etc. The basic rule is not to use any of these at all in international communication, as they generally don't go over well in other languages, or are not understandable by someone who has learned English as a second language.
  • Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/2/2004 at 7:36 PM Author
    Peter-

    I am merely expressing my frustrations and throughout the course of the responses I am learning a different POV. I am not conflicting myself...simply trying to understand and improve.

    Personally, I take a somewhat maverick approach to business. Therefore, following a "rule book" that says NOT to use humor, etc. Now, idioms and sarcasm...I can see where this can be misinterpreted. But, I am far from a "textbook" businessman. I'm looking for better ways of doing things and being able to act as a person...not an International, political robot.

    I believe International business, as the name implies, require EVERYONE, including Americans, to learn how to communicate more effectively and "flex" with one another's cultures. Currently, based on my experiences (and apparently I am not alone) the "norm" does not teach other cultures how to tolerate Americans. Our language is somewhat brash, almost void of any formality except in very special circumstances (military, job interviews, new clientele, etc.).

    For example, a fellow American and KHE expert sent me an email today providing his criticism to how I responded to a question posted by a person from the Middle East. I thanked him for his views, rsponded politely, and we moved on as friends and colleagues. If I had sent such an email to someone in Asia, they would probably never speak to me again!

    Again, we need to meet in the middle. And as far as I have seen, Americans/English speaking countries are the only ones willing to make an outstanding effort to comply. Just as some of the posts above suggest...there are books, college courses, hell, even acedemic degrees in "when to bow, when not to bow", etc.

    Are there similar courses in other countries? If someone knows, please let me know. Again, I'm trying to understand, learn, and find a solution...
  • Posted by Peter (henna gaijin) on 8/2/2004 at 7:58 PM Member
    Yes, similar books are available for other countries to learn about Western ways.

    I have lived in both Japan and Korea, and the colleagues I had in those countries spent a lot of time learning our language and culture. Even the local papers in both countries had regular columns about English language and culture. I seem to remember seeing a similar thing in the Chinese newspapers.

    There are also many foriegn students coming to the states to learn our culture and language. Many more than American students going to other countries.

    I think the majority of college age Americans who do go abroad for any significant amount of time are doing so to teach English. So common that during my travels in Asia, most locals (incorrectly) assumed I was an English teacher or in the military. I think that this shows that foriegnors are eager to learn our language and culture.
  • Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/2/2004 at 9:04 PM Author
    Bennet- per one of my posts above, I was trying to lean away from the "America=World Leader" thing. However, perhaps my colleagues are correct in stating Americans are extremely profit-oriented capitalists who find it to be an advantage to "act as Romans while in Rome".

    Your suggestion merely proves my point; I need to read books about culture shock etc., but so far, nobody has suggested the opposite! Are there books for other cultures to overcome "American Culture Shock" other than newspaper columns? Is the book you suggested printed in multiple languages?

    Thank you for your candid POV. I truly appreciate it! Not rude at all.

    Stenton- I understand there are basic, universal "laws" of behavior that pretty much everyone agrees on. Much like cultural ethics and morals (i.e. murder, theft, adultery, etc). Thanks for pointing that out.

    However, I have to disagree with you regarding your statement that most people who have problems in this area are inexperienced. Perhaps we are simply not in agreement with the norms and/or teaxtbook standards typically practiced. Now, I would not dare claim to be the most experienced in International affairs (or anything for that matter), but I am far beyond novice level. Just because one does not agree with current practice does not mean they lack experience. Please do not confuse "maverick" with "ignorant".

    Nonetheless, you make a very good point and your advice is well heeded. Thank you very much!
  • Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/2/2004 at 9:58 PM Author
    Bennet -

    Great! Thank You! I'm going to check it out...perhaps buy it tonight.

    FYI- In my questions, the general rule is "no holds barred", so please don't ever feel rude or hold back any strong opinions. You can call me a total asshole if you want. My topics are usually very emotion and thought provoking...they really stir people up. I won't take offense.

    Is this "Jett Rule of Conduct #1"? LOL.

  • Posted by Chris Blackman on 8/2/2004 at 11:32 PM Accepted
    Sometimes I think the whole world is going to hell in a hand basket. My wife was watching Sense and Sensibility on TV the other night. I was mesmerised at the incredible level of politesse employed by all Jane Austen's characters. How did they ever get any kind of understanding happening? Even the simplest of conversations was like Mexican shadow-boxing. Go rent it on video or DVD, but I warn you, you may need subtitles.

    Perhaps the unilateral nature of e-mail communication tends to make us miss the visual and verbal cues that might otherwise help us feel our way in a face-to-face meeting or even in a telephone discussion.

    The old way to do business used to be to get on the plane/ship/train and go to the prospect's country, hunt them down, sit down, drink tea or whatever with them and get to know them first before trying to do some kind of a deal.

    Hard work, yes. But somehow the electronic age has removed the genteel nature of that kind of business which allowed a bi-lateral "feeling of the way".

    In Britain I believe they used to say (I paraphrase in PC-talk) "The foreigners begin at Calais (the first port on the French side of the Channel) and if you shout loud enough, they understand"... We've come a long way since then. The old British way of doing trade used to involve gunboats to start the negotiations and included undesirable tactics such as robbery, murder, colonisation and slavery. We don't need to go back there either...

    So the question remains - how not to offend those with vastly differing cultures? Simply - I think the answer is just don't bother trying.

    Just be your normal polite self and let everyone else do the same.

    Eventually it will all meet in the middle.

    Perhaps it's worth being up-front, e.g. "I have not had the privilege if visiting your country yet: Please be sure to tell me if I do or say anything which I should not, and I will be sure to do the same for you, if you wish. Perhaps it's worth being just a tad more formal (Mr/Mrs Name, etc, and to ask "How should I address you in our conversations, Mr... ?") just until things thaw out and the relationship kicks in, internet style...

    And if people are still too offended by that, perhaps they are just too much trouble to deal with anyway?

    Disclaimer: Please accept these comments in the generous and collaborative style in which they were intended. If any part causes offence feel free to register a complaint at www.justbuildabridgeandgetoverit.com or www.letssitdownforacuppatogether.com

    I used to live in Manhattan. One Sunday morning in 1979 I went for brunch at the Hilton on Sixth. The waitress noticed my unamerican accent and when she produced the check for my bagels and lox told me loudly "That's the total, which doesn't include tipping, which is a minimum of 15 per cent, twenty is better!"

    I wasn't at all offended... and I just haven't forgotten her.

    Funny what makes some customer experiences memorable, isn't it?


  • Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/3/2004 at 12:34 AM Author
    The more I think about it, we have a hard enough time understanding different cultures within our own countries. Now, take that "problem", turn it into an email or phone call, send it overseas, and watch it multiply!

    This could very well be one of those "Why can't we all just get along" utopic ideals.

    Throughout my career, I have handled these situations just like Chris described. Yet, somehow, I end up being the bad guy...the one who "defaced" someone or robbed them of their honor because I addressed them as "Frank" instead of "Mr. Frank Smith, President of XYZ Co." It seems so ridiculous to me. It's not as if my correspondance was uncouth...the ONLY complaint was the salutation! And, of course, it's up to ME to read a book about it...not them.

    Anyway....meeting in the middle seems reasonable..or is the mere suggestion of such a thing considered offensive too?

    Where's the Tower of Babel when you need it?
  • Posted on 8/3/2004 at 5:08 AM Accepted
    Chances are, the people you are dealing with are thinking the same thing. That they are jumping through hoops trying to adapt to YOUR needs. I hear this all the time here in Italy. People say, "I can't believe I have to speak in English all the time to Joe in the UK and he doesn't even TRY to say Grazie or Arrivederci." Italians, for example, love it when business partners or even tourists will take the time and spit out an actual sentence in Italian.

    I think the person who is more adept at being flexible in the situation has the upper hand. It's the rule of adaptation. I don't talk to my grandmother like I talk to my girlfriends. I didn't talk to my South American boss (very laid back) like I talk to my Italian boss (I still call him "Ingegnere", or Engineer, after a year of working together).

    Rule number one in negotiations is "Know thy opponent". Get all the information you can on them--how they operate. What they expect of you. This way you'll show them that you can do it too. You care enough to listen and learn.

    I really like the book "Understanding Global Cultures" by Gannon and Associates. I read it in my MBA program ages ago, but it's wonderful, and covers a lot of ground.

    And to your question, "why is it up to me to understand them?", I'd like to point out that Americans are brand spanking new at this cultural thing. The US is a baby compared to most other countries. Also, out of all cultures, Americans are the most flexible because the US is truly a melting pot. Other cultures have roots in tradition and can't even imagine that "things could be different". We in Italy are only just now trying to adapt to the immigrant situation and trying to understand them and their ways of life.

    One final note. All this "bowing to other people's needs" is frustrating, whether in your professional or your personal life. So, I don't blame you for being frustrated! It's normal. Just don't let your frustration "leak" through when you're dealing with your International collegues.

    Ciao,
    Ricky
  • Posted by SRyan ;] on 8/3/2004 at 6:57 AM Accepted
    Blaine,

    ChrisB's response made me remember one of the best stand-up comic videos of all time. When I'm rich, I'll order a copy for everyone here! In the meantime, try to rent Eddie Izzard's "Dress to Kill" show, which was broadcast on HBO two or three years ago. (If you can't find it, you might talk me into loaning you my copy!)

    Seriously, Eddie's portrayal of Brits, Americans, Italians, Germans, etc. is a hoot, and a not-so-subtle jab at U.S. foreign policies.

    Chris, one of my favorite comments in Eddie's routine is about British colonization. He says they conquered the world "through the cunning use of flags."

    - Shelley
  • Posted by Chris Blackman on 8/3/2004 at 9:08 AM Member
    What an inspiring thread

    Mr Bennettstenton (May I call you Ben? LOL)

    I understand what you are saying about the Japanese rituals. Perhaps being myself is easier for me than for others... Perhaps I should say to Blaine, be more like me, less like Blaine? But would he be offended if I did!??

    Virago has identified it well: Politeness, Persistence, Patience, Perspective... Several years ago I was trying to negotiate a simple trading deal with a large Japanese company. They laughed, initially, and said they had a long-standing relationship with a competitor of mine. I did exactly what virago said... Persisted, and crafted a deal that I knew would work for them, and worked hard on finding a way to make it work for my company. I didn't become like them, nor did I act ilke them... I just acted and negotiated in empathy for their position. Ten months later, and 13 trips to Tokyo under my belt, and we had a solid understanding with an MOA signed by their President and my chairman.

    Perhaps the lesson when dealing with anyone, regardless of cross-cultural differences, is to understand before you seek to be understood (ack. Steven Covey/7 Habits).

    Another bibliographic reference - Thick Face; Black Heart. Can't remember the author. Oh! And don't forget Blindsided - by Eamonn Fingleton, an object lesson in underestimating the Japanese.

    Shelley - how true is the flag thing. The British were excellent with flags and ridiculous forailty. Remember Rorkes Drift - the battle epitomised in the movie Zulu with Michael Caine. The Zulus were annihilating the British, yet the quartermaster still wanted a properly signed and authorised requisition form before handing out the rifles that were needed for the futile defence effort. Doh! We learned to laugh at ouselves early on, and with due cause!

    Blaine - reminds me - how much damage has The Simpsons done for world diplomacy?

    HCR has also hit another nail squarely on the head: The greatest openers of all are about the differences between you. Through understanding those, we can resolve problems on a global scale.

    Who knows, we might also sell a few more widgets and associated services, too.

  • Posted by Chris Blackman on 8/3/2004 at 9:14 AM Member
    Before you dive for the dictionary, I meant "Ridiculous formality" para 7, above...
  • Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/3/2004 at 9:53 AM Author
    Virago - EXCELLENT POINT! To answer your question; I have no idea based on fact, yet I suspect it to be true...they probably do not treat their local colleagues any different.

    I am polite and persistant, and I TRY to put things into perspective, but patience is something I certainly lack. It seems as though the word "efficient" does not exist in many cultures. This is where I get into the most conflict. I have clients whose products are manufactured in several Asian countries. My clients will contact me stating they have several hundred thousand items on back-order and the factory doesn't seem to care. Sometimes, it takes 3 weeks to get a response to an urgent request for product, pricing, etc.

    After 2-3 "polite" emails/calls with no response, I kick into the "please respond ASAP or we may be forced to seek another service". Sometimes this works...at least to get an initial promise of delivery (which never arrives). In the end, the only way to get them back on line is to mention we have several thousand dollars waiting for transfer. Suddenly, the factory wakes up and is ready for business again!

    Again, I'm am not stating or suggesting everyone needs to be like me and accept my behavior, but at least try to respect the fact that if you are supplying an American company, they expect a certain level of dependability.

    Thank you for being candid in your response. My behavior has a lot to do with it and I am making great steps in order to cater to their customs...I just wish the same could happen over there.

    HCR- Thank you for your insight into the Israeli culture. I'll comment more later today...have to run.

    Shelley - I LOVE Izzy!! I own that show along with some of his other routines...he's a cross-dressing, UK version of George Carlin!


    Gotta run...be back to comment more later...

  • Posted on 8/3/2004 at 12:35 PM Accepted
    This is truely an interesting thread of comments. My initial reaction to Jett's posting was "suck it up and stop being so American." I think American's live a very "sheltered" live with little direct influence from other cultures. I was floored in college when fellow students couldn't even place other countries in the right region of the world let alone talk about the countries. I was born and raised in Denmark (currently living in the US) and as part of my education I had to learn about other countries and cultures. The US educational system is not geared towards preparing the next generation for international business. Americans are very proud of their country (and they should be), but that doesn't mean the world stops at the US boarders. Learning about other people is not making you less American. When you write "meet in the middle" I assume that you are willing to communicate with them in their native language if they have to do business on your terms?

    Another good book on the topic of cultural differences is by Geert Hofstede called Cultures and Organizations, Software of the Mind (available in several different languages).
  • Posted by SRyan ;] on 8/3/2004 at 12:38 PM Member
    You own that show, Blaine??

    I just KNEW there was some reason we get along so well.

    "Cake, please."

    - Shelley
  • Posted by Blaine Wilkerson on 8/3/2004 at 7:52 PM Author
    HCR- Back to your comments....it appears you are suggesting a derivative of Chris' comments; initiate small talk, and while I'm at it...why not talk about cultural issues?!! I like that!

    Shelley - Eddie Izzard in my Top 5 favorite comedians. I've seen all but one of his shows and love them all. You are right, he really focuses on cultural differences and sensitive topics such as sex, gender, religion, etc.

    My favorite is when he talks about Noah and the Great Flood. He makes a very good point: Noah loaded up all the land creatures (except for the ducks...they float), the water came and killed all the "nice" little creatures...but GOD left the sharks...THEY CAN SWIM!! And so on...funny stuff.

    Chris- You crack me up! (Chris sent me a fake "hate mail" with a bunch of cultural offenses on my part...in jest).

    Holm - I appreciate your candid comments as well. This is part of the problem...Americans are stereotyped as arrogant, self-centered, greedy, etc. Now, there is some truth in this perception, but name a country who doesn't share those same qualities.

    international business is not a core curriculum in the US. AS a matter of fact, business in general is not either. Hell, the schools spend more time teaching students Algebra, basic grammer, US history, sociology, chemistry, etc. yet do not teach people how to function in society...let alone OTHER cultures. World geography is not a priority because is play a VERY small role in most American's lives.

    Are we sheltered? I don't think that's the best term. "Spoiled Rotten" is more like it!! We are raised as patriots, constantly reminded of our financial and military strength, and create VERY strong feelings of loyalty. Does our government make the rest of the world angry on a daily basis? Sure! Can we do anything about it? NO! They say the "people rule" in the US. The only thing we rule is the economy. Anything beyond that is bureaucratic. Such a small percentage of Americans actually vote, and those votes hold little weight and can be over-ridden by political and government officials.

    Anyway, YES, I would LOVE to learn other languages! I am learning Spanish (my in-laws are from Mexico and Spain), and I am fascinated with Asian languages. Where do I sign up?

    Virago - Thanks again for following the thread and adding valuable insight!
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